Custom transformers, and hasbro., Sad, but honest truth. Options

[Treadshot 2.0]

Granted, I don't have Gunbuster. And I want it. But I can't afford it. *shrug* The other thing that sucks about SoCs.

I didn't know that Aquarion didn't merit a 'soul of', LOL. I guess it's too new to really qualify...

[Boltax]

S'like Sipher said -- the fan stuff can be phenomenally great.

But it's inevitably a rehash of a concept that has already been presented somewhere else.

There's almost never anything NEW. Hearts of Steel Optimus? From a comic. Ultra MAgnus armour? Rollar? Cyclonus and Wheelie kits? All ideas that already existed in the brand.

Hasbro and Takara are constantly making the brand NEW and that's what's the most incredible about what they do with Transformers. Beast Wars, Beast Machines, RiD, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Movie, Animated... man it's almost TOO much. Transformers rarely pins itself down to one design aesthetic or gimmick or even engineering style for more than a year.

Fan projects, just by their very nature, aren't really INNOVATIVE. They can't afford to be. Commercial fan projects like the Smallest Dinobots, or the Ultra Magnus armour or the Cyclonus kit or that Hearts of Steel Optimus will always take ideas that already exist. In fact I think HOS Optimus is the most out-there of the lot.

That's not to take away from the quality, the workmanship, the dedication or the wonderful niche they fill.

But damn.

I love Hasbro and Takara for what they produce for us -- and it always seems to be moving forwards. Who could ask for more than that?

--Boltax.
(And complexity? Dude, that's just dumb. TFs have gotten complex to the point of ridiculousness in recent years. Have you PLAYED with Masterpiece Optimus Prime or Movie Leader Class toys?)

[TheTurnipKing]

I'm with Thylacine. I haven't seen a fan-made product, EVER, with the overall quality of the best TF toys. Sure, some are better than others (just like fan stuff... there's plenty of jivey stuff, I'm sure, it's just we don't talk about it because it doesn't bear mentioning) but the best Hasbro stuff is ALWAYS better than the best fan-made stuff. Period.

City Commander being the exception that proves the rule?

Even Mark's Projects Ultra Magnus armor wouldn't be as good as what Takara would make (if they chose to make it).

I think that's the critical point. WHY aren't the professionals producing these things? Why aren't they picking up on bits of the brand so beloved that people feel compelled to create their own to fill the gap?

[M Sipher]

Even Mark's Projects Ultra Magnus armor wouldn't be as good as what Takara would make (if they chose to make it).

I think that's the critical point. WHY aren't the professionals producing these things? Why aren't they picking up on bits of the brand so beloved that people feel compelled to create their own to fill the gap?

Because odds are preeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty good most of these things won't sell in the tens of thousands, the numbers Has/Tak need to sell them at so they can stay at their current retail prices and still turn a profit.

The Magnus armor would be shelf poison. "Here's HALF a Transformer for $20. Enjoy!"


M "One Must Also Consider Timing, Conjunction With Current Product..." Sipher

[1stStageMidboss]

I don't need shoulder or neck articulation to enjoy a product. Imagination is a wonderful thing.

Why imagine that a neck or shoulder can move at the expense of a gimmick when they've done both before?

Because a gimmick like that adds more play value and uniqueness to the toy than neck and shoulder articulation would. I'd rather have a less-articulated toy with fun gimmicks than a super-articulated-but-just-a-guy-who-turns-into-a-car toy, because the gimmicks give you something special for that toy, while articulation is cool, and always a good thing to have, of course, but if a good gimmick would hold back articulation, it's definitely worth putting in anyway.

[TheTurnipKing]

Even Mark's Projects Ultra Magnus armor wouldn't be as good as what Takara would make (if they chose to make it).

I think that's the critical point. WHY aren't the professionals producing these things? Why aren't they picking up on bits of the brand so beloved that people feel compelled to create their own to fill the gap?

Because odds are preeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty good most of these things won't sell in the tens of thousands, the numbers Has/Tak need to sell them at so they can stay at their current retail prices and still turn a profit.

The Magnus armor would be shelf poison. "Here's HALF a Transformer for $20. Enjoy!"


M "One Must Also Consider Timing, Conjunction With Current Product..." Sipher

Alternatively, it could be bundled with the actual figure? Sold at maybe a Leader price-point. Certainly something like that would have tempted a lot of people who already passed on (or indeed, owned) the Magnus/Skywarp set. I consider Magnus + City Commander to be a great deal more tempting than both "miscoloured Powerglide" and "broken-siren Onslaught".

Though in fairness, there's something about the aesthetic of both Ultras that just rubs me the wrong way.

This post has been edited by TheTurnipKing: Nov 5 2008, 03:46 AM

[TFDoc]

When a fan produces a gimmick as cool as Armada Hot Shot's Axlezooka, THEN we'll talk about how well they can reproduce Hasbro's ingenuity.


M "I Love That Thing" Sipher

Amen!

I just got PL Hot Shot and he has been right near my hands for a few days now, and I have totally re-upped on my LOVE for that wild pop-up, twist-out Axlezooka. Even though this is the first I heard that term. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-ironhide.gif)

[TrnsfrmGod]

There's plenty of passion in this biz out of Hasbro. Deal is, most of it is the development end. The designers and artists are passionate and love their work. Sometimes, though, the engineers have to knock that passion down a notch with a touch of reality.

It's true. One of the biggest reasons I went after my engineering degree is because I love crushing dreams and hope with cold hard logic and equations.

You too!?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-fire.gif)

[SkullGrin]

I'd like more stuff like the movie premiums. Like toys that maybe cost a few dollars more because they have a few more paint apps. Maybe even include some remolding. Kind of like the Hasbro Toy Shop exclusives only in mass retail and with some extra paint detailing. If they make them in limited production runs like Alternators it could be feasible and collectors could get their hands on them.

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

I still think we should avoid a tendency to go too far to either pole. We don't want to automatically disparage the creativity and skill of the fan-customizers out of loyalty to Hasbro.

I do see this error propagated from time to time. I think it's an easy trap to fall into, because this hobby has only one "official" supplier, unlike many other hobbies, which have many.

There have been many fan-produced articles which have done things Hasbro never could, or would. City Commander is a good example. It's a better suit of Classics Ultra Magnus armor than Hasbro has ever produced, and it has many fine qualities in its own right. The probable fact that Hasbro has no interest in producing a suit of Ultra Magnus armor does not make that goal less worthy, or the achievement less admirable. Why should it be otherwise?

Stronghold would probably fail the drop test, but THE DON had no interest in passing the drop test. He set out to make the biggest, awesomest monster of a citybot ever. He did, in fact, succeed in this, and brilliantly so.

While I do not agree with the original poster's view, for reasons I have put forth, I also think we should avoid any tendency to overreact and make the opposite error. It's understandable, but it's still something to avoid.

This post has been edited by Autobus Prime: Nov 5 2008, 02:34 PM

[TheTurnipKing]

Still, I would say that Hasbro could benefit by taking a look at the stuff their fans are building, and asking themselves "why couldn't we have done that?"

[Professor]

Still, I would say that Hasbro could benefit by taking a look at the stuff their fans are building, and asking themselves "why couldn't we have done that?"

What makes you think they don't?

I would be surprised if Hasbro folks don't look at the Magnus armour and think, "That's so awesome. It's a shame we can't make something like that because of limited demand and unacceptable pricing." Do you really think that that, when they released the classics Ultra Magnus, it simply didn't occur to Hasbro that a trailer that turns into armour would be very cool?

Let's face it: Hasbro could make a Masterpiece Wheelie if they wanted to. And, I'm sure the sixty-two people willing to pay $50 for it would love it to death. Hasbro can't work like that though.

[Rosicrucian]

Hell, do any of you honestly think you can make the case that Hasbro doesn't comb the fandom for talent, when over half of the Classics line was designed by Don Figueroa? Do you think Don could have ever predicted this back when he was scratchbuilding his Macromasters?

[Adam16bit]

One of these days I should pick up a Hot Shot to see what the fuss is about. Of course this is probably not going to happen, now that Hasbro is producing a new version of the same guy...curiosity probably won't make me spend another $10.

How about under $7? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-hotrod.gif) On eBay, auctions for Armada Hot Shot end cheaply. You can get the Micron Legend version with the LED fist for about $10 before shipping, and the US one-- out of the package-- ends as low as $1 before shipping. I second that it is a truly wonderful toy, and despite it not being my favorite at the time. Totally worth it, especially for Jolt. Jolt's as good as or better than most recent Legends, and I freaking LOVE Legends.

[Spark]

While I'm certainly not going to go so far as trying to defend Hasbro/Takara by using Armada as an example (gimmicks or what have you, that's just counterproductive to the argument) or somehow trying to convince people the original Hot Shot is "good" somehow (he's... better than the vast lot of Armada, but not "good") and defending his crippling flaws by going "imagination!", I will say that I've never seen a custom toy that approaches the actual mass produced Transformers in any regard, with lone, LONE exception of City Commander which is just an amazing perfect storm of talent and effort.

[ExVee]

City Commander is a remarkable achievement, without a doubt. On the other hand I'd really like to think that if it were a Hasbro product, you would maybe have some extra hinged panels in the leg armor so you don't have to feel like you're breaking the thing to assemble or remove it. To look at the thing either on Magnus as armor or hooked up as the trailer, I might not immediately think it was 'third party hardware', but I'd know as soon as I tried to work with it.

City Commander may be an amazing piece of work, but I don't believe it should be considered an exception to the points being raised about fan efforts versus official product.

[Zodberg]

But it's inevitably a rehash of a concept that has already been presented somewhere else.
There's almost never anything NEW. Hearts of Steel Optimus? From a comic. Ultra MAgnus armour? Rollar? Cyclonus and Wheelie kits? All ideas that already existed in the brand.

Hasbro and Takara are constantly making the brand NEW and that's what's the most incredible about what they do with Transformers. Beast Wars, Beast Machines, RiD, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Movie, Animated... man it's almost TOO much. Transformers rarely pins itself down to one design aesthetic or gimmick or even engineering style for more than a year.

I think fans could easily make NEW stuff if they wanted to. But part of the idea of Hearts Of Stell Prime is that it forces the designer to work inside of parameters as an extra layer of challenge. Having an original figure with nods to the Hearts of Steel design (as there are nods in most TF toys nowadays) would be alright, and give the developer additional freedom to lay down details... arbitrarily.

I figure the impressive original fan creations are out there, but nobody attaches to them for the same reasons people were crazy excited about Energon Shockblack and rather lukewarm on Energon Landquake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-hotrod.gif)

[Cat]

I'm with Thylacine. I haven't seen a fan-made product, EVER, with the overall quality of the best TF toys. Sure, some are better than others (just like fan stuff... there's plenty of jivey stuff, I'm sure, it's just we don't talk about it because it doesn't bear mentioning) but the best Hasbro stuff is ALWAYS better than the best fan-made stuff. Period.

City Commander being the exception that proves the rule?

Even Mark's Projects Ultra Magnus armor wouldn't be as good as what Takara would make (if they chose to make it).

I think that's the critical point. WHY aren't the professionals producing these things? Why aren't they picking up on bits of the brand so beloved that people feel compelled to create their own to fill the gap?

There's always going to be gaps. Transformers is a huge franchise. Everyone is someone's favourite, no matter how obscure.

[Malikon]

Interesting that someone said they'd choose a gimmick over neck and shoulder articulation.

Personally I hate gimmicks, I'd rather have a figure I can pose then one like HotShot where he's all gimmick. (*and kind of a dumb one at that*)

I bet Hasbro has some awesome ideas for add-ons and stuff for transformers. But like what was said, they need to move product in huge numbers, so they're not gonna take a chance on a big shelf warming Magnus armor. They almost seem to turn a bit of a blind eye when it comes to fan creations, which is awesome. It gives fans the freedom to get creative without worrying that big bad hasbro is going to come after them. They understand that fan projects fill a niche that they can't actually fill without losing money somewhere.

Personally I worry about the classics line, I LOVE that line and every figure so far I've really enjoyed. But I wonder how well they're really selling since I'm sure it's mostly collectors who buy them.

I've never seen a kid in the toy aisle buy one of the classics. And that's even with some prompting, "hey, check out that awesome yellow lamborghini!"

I tend to think Hasbro does some things for us that they really don't have to do. They do seem to put some work into making everyone happy, from the 30 year old collector to the 8 year old kids.

[TheTurnipKing]

Still, I would say that Hasbro could benefit by taking a look at the stuff their fans are building, and asking themselves "why couldn't we have done that?"

What makes you think they don't?

I would be surprised if Hasbro folks don't look at the Magnus armour and think, "That's so awesome. It's a shame we can't make something like that because of limited demand and unacceptable pricing." Do you really think that that, when they released the classics ltra Magnus, it simply didn't occur to Hasbro that a trailer that turns into armour would be very cool?

IIRC, Hasbro quite specifically said "we're not doing trailers anymore" when asked about a trailer for Classics Prime, the implication being that there wasn't any demand for that kind of thing.

Surely the success of CC shows that it's simply not the case that there's no demand though.

Interesting that someone said they'd choose a gimmick over neck and shoulder articulation.

Personally I hate gimmicks, I'd rather have a figure I can pose then one like HotShot where he's all gimmick. (*and kind of a dumb one at that*)

While I agree, I also have to accept that I'm not the target audience.

I should say that my young nephew LOVES to play with my reissue G1 Optimus Prime, and it warms my heart to see him used as a toy, rather than sitting on my shelf display. Coming back to City Commander, he loves to play with the trucks and their trailers.

This post has been edited by TheTurnipKing: Nov 6 2008, 01:47 PM