Is AEC Worth Catching Now?, I Mostly Missed It Options

[▲ndrusi]

Energon is objectively better than Superlink, by virtue of being 22ish minutes shorter.

Doesn't that just mean the pain is more concentrated?

[Blade Raider]

Don't even bother with the crap US dubs. I recommend Galaxy Force (Cybertron's counterpart) in subtitled form. It's stand alone, has a much better first episode, better animation (Hasbro used roughs in the final product again), and the characters know how to shut the hell up every once in a while to let the animation and music do it's job. Oh, and no rap theme song. That's worth watching GF over Cybertron by itself.

[▲ndrusi]

and the characters know how to shut the hell up every once in a while to let the animation and music do it's job.

Namely, filling out episode time.

[DrSpengler]

better animation (Hasbro used roughs in the final product again),

From all the compare/contrast images on TFWiki, it looks to me like Cybertron actually has the more complete animation (save for one scene where Optimus is miscolored).

[Blade Raider]

and the characters know how to shut the hell up every once in a while to let the animation and music do it's job.

Namely, filling out episode time.

I'm not talking about the stupid long transformation and attack shots. I'm talking about every scene ever. Best example: The first big battle of Prime and Megs in Atlantis. In GF, the only sounds they make are grunts and groans from being hit while the cool battle music plays. In Cybertron, they keep spurting out nonsense about this being the final battle and evil will/won't win. Ruins an otherwise awesome scene.

From all the compare/contrast images on TFWiki, it looks to me like Cybertron actually has the more complete animation (save for one scene where Optimus is miscolored).

You just don't like organic trees on Cybertron. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-waspy.gif)

This post has been edited by Blade Raider: May 9 2011, 02:09 PM

[M Sipher]

Do people not know what rap actually is?

And yeah, I'll take Cybertron's dub over any subtitled TF series ever.


M "What With Its Characters And Contempt For Filler Stock Footage" Sipher

[Bleargh001]

Did you mean to write crap instead of rap? Otherwise I'm confused....

[M Sipher]

No, I typed exactly what I meant.

Oh, and no rap theme song.

M "So The Question Stands" Sipher

[▲ndrusi]

and the characters know how to shut the hell up every once in a while to let the animation and music do it's job.

Namely, filling out episode time.

I'm not talking about the stupid long transformation and attack shots.

I am.

[M Sipher]

and the characters know how to shut the hell up every once in a while to let the animation and music do it's job.

Namely, filling out episode time.

I'm not talking about the stupid long transformation and attack shots.

I am.

Cybertron's overdubbing of those is one of the best things ever out of the era of imported TF anime.

The only thing better is that the era of imported TF anime seems to have convinced Hasbro to never let the main animated fiction be done by Japan ever again.


M "And It Was Good" Sipher

[Autobus Prime]

Do people not know what rap actually is?

M:

Well, if the hip-hop industry doesn't, what chance do we have? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-hotrod.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-hotrod.gif)

(Some of it's still fun to listen to, though, which is the important thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon-hotrod.gif) )

[Fortress Ironhol...]

It ultimately depends upon what your level of patience is and your willingness to forgive what was obviously an incompetent dub team.

Armada starts out pretty poorly at first, in large part because Cartoon Network rushed the dubbing process; a lot of obvious dubbing mistakes were made, and many episodes also featured unfinished animation. That the episodes themselves were also somewhat weak to begin with didn't help matters. However, the writers found their feet as the series went on and CN pulled back on the rush orders, enabling the US team to actually cobble something decent together.

Energon, though, was the exact opposite. The writers for the series did what they could to make it come on strong, but they actually made it too strong; they were set for a full 52 episodes, but could have actually ended the show in half that. The end result was a second half full of random character introductions, repetitive plots, and character derailment due to ongoing story arcs being abandoned in the confusion. On top of that, the US once again had to make do with unfinished animation on several episodes. Couple this with some less-than-stellar voice performances and some questionable decisions on the part of the dub team, and you have what is generally agreed to be one of the weakest entries in Transformers fiction. The final kick in the crotch comes when you realize that, for reasons unknown outside of the studio, one episode of the show was never translated despite early promotional material indicating that it was on the list.

Cybertron is ultimately the best of both worlds. The writing is pretty tight, the pacing is reasonable, the characters are actually likable, and the dub team was honestly on the ball. However, some behind-the-scenes issues resulted in the first two episodes very nearly getting borked; episode #3 was actually the debut episode. This makes for a slight bit of confusion, as the two-parter that was supposed to start the series was instead compressed down to a single episode, and the leftovers were sandwiched together to make the series finale. Bear in mind, however, that although Cybertron was originally meant as a stand-alone series, Hasbro forced some last-minute alterations to keep in in like with the previous two shows. The nature of the alterations has led to at least one conspiracy theory which argues that Cybertron is actually a sequel to the Dreamwave comics rather than the last two shows (I seem to recall a few people here hashing it out back in the day).

[Mugen no Ken]

Energon is crap, and I can't stand Cybertron's dub.

Super Link I like up to a certain point, and I think Galaxy Force kicks some pretty significant ass.

Really, depends on your tastes.

[M Sipher]

It ultimately depends upon what your level of patience is and your willingness to forgive what was obviously an incompetent dub team.

Except that selfsame team has worked on other projects before and since, with way better results.... like, say, My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, for example.

Stories from the staff have tole that the hypertight schedule needed to get episodes of Armada and Energon to Cartoon Network in a timeframe they demanded (or else the shows would end up airing way too late to properly tie into the toylines they're meant to advertise) had resulted in the dubbing process going from "received the raw script from Japan" to "record the lines" in as little as 24 hours. That's insane. And we've seen that those two shows ended up having to use incomplete animation as well.

Cybertron's development schedule apparently managed to allow for more time devoted to it, thus the far better dub job. Of course, the base cartoon was still overstretched, crammed full of Styrofoam Peanut Scenes and at times completely nonsensical... any dub team would be hard-pressed to make Energon not suck, let alone having maybe a day to get it all in the can.

Everything I've ever heard about dealing with CN makes it sound like a nightmare, even when the product was domestic. Thus Hasbro's taking their ball and then building their own stadium to play with it in.


M "So No, I Don't Think They Were 'Incompetent'. Just In A Very Unenviable, No-Win Situation" Sipher

[Bleargh001]

No, I typed exactly what I meant.

Oh, and no rap theme song.

M "So The Question Stands" Sipher

Oh right, the opening theme. That jive was dope!

[mx-01 archon]

Energon, though, was the exact opposite. The writers for the series did what they could to make it come on strong, but they actually made it too strong; they were set for a full 52 episodes, but could have actually ended the show in half that. The end result was a second half full of random character introductions, repetitive plots, and character derailment due to ongoing story arcs being abandoned in the confusion.

It's not so much that they stretched 26 episodes of plot over 52 episodes, it's that they wrote those 26 episodes (arguably, it started going downhill around 15, but the halfway point is when it became virtually unsalvagable), and then stopped writing.

The first handful of episodes actually teased some rather poignant character drama, and dangled a number of plot threads that could have been taken deep. There was Kicker's estrangement from his father and mistrust of the Autobots, and also his status as some sort of envoy for Primus (and the series actually presented the first ever interaction with Primus in any of the cartoon series), and despite his brash and hot-headed behaviour, is an emotionally unstable boy who depends on his girlfriend for a sense of stability to his life. There was Demolishor, torn between his newfound sense of purpose and belonging with the Autobots, his begrudging friendship with Ironhide, and his loyalty to Megatron. There was Starscream, a literal ghost of his former self, trying to regain his identity. Questionably, there was Tidal Wave's uncharacterfully insightful look into the nature of Megatron's grudge with Optimus Prime, which could have been taken in any number of directions. While not much for the storyline, Shockblast was a total scene-stealer in his violent psychopathy, and actually made things fun to watch when he was around. And there was Alpha Quintesson, the mysterious puppetmaster between the devastating Terrorcon raids. Lots of good stuff there, with lots of potential to be built upon.

Apart from a few random continuity snarls (since when did Megatron have a sword, and why is it suddenly the Decepticon equivalent of Excalibur), it was proving to be a rather solid series, careless dub work aside.

So naturally, at the halfway mark, each and every one of those plot points is dropped unceremoniously and without explanation. Kicker suddenly starts acting chummy with Ironhide like there's never been an issue before (and AFAIK, neither his dad nor Primus interacts meaningfully with him ever again). All of the Decepticons with interesting personalities get mind-wiped (into often painful caricatures of their former selves, to add insult to injury). Shockblast is suddenly killed off for no real reason (Wing Saber doesn't even do the deed, does he? I never even bothered to watch that far in). Alpha Quintesson's identity is revealed far too early, and the attempt to paint him in a sympathetic light is thoroughly unconvincing, given his constant violent Zerg-rush antics. And this was the halfway mark of the series, at which point they completely severed all of the interesting bits of plot, and we're left meandering with no clear goals left for the other half. It's one of the biggest "WTFs" in Transformers fiction that I've borne witness to. Maybe even writing in general. It's like if Shakespeare were writing his magnum opus (Okay, as good as it was at the beginning, Energon is not like Shakespeare. Just go with it), and then halfway through, handed his quill to a semi-trained monkey and said "Okay, you can take it from here". And then the monkey died. To this day, it's still something I really want to see handled in an interview at some point. It's all rather befuddling how it turned out like it did. Did some exec complain that it was too violent and "heavy" for the kids? Did they just burn up the budget, and had to half-ass their way through the rest? Did the head writer die, to be replaced by an incompetent understudy? Who knows?


To add even more insult to injury, while everybody likes to complain about Energon's stiff animation, there was some obvious attempt in that first half to make the action sequences exciting. Even from the first episode, there was Hot Shot taking a dramatic flying leap off the access bridge in car mode, transforming in mid-air, and slamming down onto the ground all bad-ass like. There was Megatron's awakening scene. There was another badass one of Hot Shot, awakening from stasis-lock after getting his ass handed to him by Megatron, to violently burst out of the CR tank in the nick of time to turn the tide against an incoming Terrorcon horde. There was the awe-inspiring collateral damage when Optimus and Megatron finally go at it, sword-to-sword. There was Shockblast's brutal takedown of the prison guards when he makes jailbreak. Even fun, silly little things, like Hot Shot popping an arm out in car mode so that he can "run-and-gun" more effectively in one sequence. And any number of those rare, but always excellent sequences where the animators wanted to do something really dynamic, so briefly swapped out the cel-shaded CG character models for some gorgeously animated, Gainax-esque zaniness (in terms of violent forced-perspectives and deformation). Just like everything else, once that second half hit, none of those exciting sequences were to be found, replaced by endlessly recycled stock footage and G1-style blind firefights.

[Fortress Ironhol...]

It ultimately depends upon what your level of patience is and your willingness to forgive what was obviously an incompetent dub team.

Except that selfsame team has worked on other projects before and since, with way better results.... like, say, My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, for example.

Some of the individual talents, though, didn't exactly pull their weight.

For example, the guy who voiced Kicker was seemingly intent upon making a PTSD case sound like a generic whiner.

Or the guy who did Energon Ironhide took someone who was supposed to be a fish-out-of-water and turned him into a stoner.

I understand that Vancouver is one of the four major studio locations in North America as far as dubbing goes (the others being LA, NYC, and Ft. Worth) and so Hasbro pretty much had to play ball with whoever showed up, but some voice talents just don't fit with some roles.

[mx-01 archon]

For example, the guy who voiced Kicker was seemingly intent upon making a PTSD case sound like a generic whiner.

Except that exact same guy also worked on the dub for Black Lagoon, an all around team effort that, in the eyes of most its fans, essentially erased the Japanese version from existence. And then there's his stint as the lead on Death Note, which most agree was a fantastic performance.

Brad Swaille is a talented voice actor. He knows how to do his job.

And Kicker really wasn't that bad. He had a legitimate reason to complain. It just boils down to not liking that particular character archetype. There was nothing wrong with Swaille's acting.

Or the guy who did Energon Ironhide took someone who was supposed to be a fish-out-of-water and turned him into a stoner.

Or rather, Matt Hill made him sound like a greenhorn punk kid. Which is what Ironhide essentially was.

[Fenix Twilight]

Shockblast is suddenly killed off for no real reason (Wing Saber doesn't even do the deed, does he? I never even bothered to watch that far in).

(snip)

And any number of those rare, but always excellent sequences where the animators wanted to do something really dynamic, so briefly swapped out the cel-shaded CG character models for some gorgeously animated, Gainax-esque zaniness (in terms of violent forced-perspectives and deformation). Just like everything else, once that second half hit, none of those exciting sequences were to be found, replaced by endlessly recycled stock footage and G1-style blind firefights.

Shockblast dies when he tries to hook into Unicron and the power turns him into an insane berserker, him and Optimus start fighting and just when Optimus talks sense into him, Unicron takes control over Megatron and punches the spot on the planet when Shockblast is crushing him. It's a pretty cool scene, and it's one of those excellent animation scenes you mention.


It's great, you ignore Wing Saber not avenging his fellow Autobots.


-Edit- Why don't I just post it?



This post has been edited by Fenix Twilight: May 10 2011, 01:15 AM

[mx-01 archon]

Ah, my bad. I forgot about that bit, on account of the fact that I never managed to get that far in the series. Apart from Shockblast's antics, the show was already starting to peter out around that point due to all the Decepticon mind-wiping.